Curse

Abedeus · Feb 18, 2010, 09:13 PM // 21:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Why should a balanced group be able to do the same compared to a group composed of 8 Mesmers, or 6 Rangers and 2 Eles, or any combination thereof?

Because if something is better than a BALANCED team, does something a lot more safely and a lot faster than that BALANCED group.. it probably means it's imbalanced.

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When you can explain to me why the game should only cater to groups composed of Warriors, Elementalists, Monks and the occasional Necromancer, while marginalizing all the other professions and their hundreds of skills, then perhaps you'll understand that the core problem of GW is the balance of the areas, and not the classes.

It shouldn't? You are probably playing with crappy pugs or without a good guild, where you never run anything like Derv-way or use Rangers or other classes at all. The "divine trinity" is pretty slow and crappy in GW, there are better alternatives, but people are too lazy. Can't change that.

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Nerfing SF to hell and back will not fix the game. So any time spent on that will be futile. I repeat Tenebrae, nerfing SF will not fix the problem. It will only transfer the problem to some other class/skill combination because there are too many permutations for ANet to balance them ALL.

No, but the more skills causing problems you fix, the closer you are to the golden formula. That's like a surgery - you have to fix bones, cauterize bleeds, do a splenectomy... each on its own won't help the patient, but if you fix all of the problems one by one, he will eventually be cured.

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Its much simpler and elegant to balance the areas themselves, adding in some random skills to mobs, AND less time consuming in the long run, instead of CONSTANTLY re-working skills that rely on specific conditions to be met.

Yeah, rebalancing every single area in the game, being careful not to screw up either with Normal Mode for lowbies or Hard Mode to make the game impossible (WoH post-buffs in HM and Crystal Desert Monk bosses?)

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Again, ask yourself why SF is not widely used in PvP? Because the environment changes, the "mobs" you face (other players) adapt and change, hence its impossible to always rely on the same mechanic.

No? It's because SF uses a different version of the skill. And when it didn't, it was used in RA by crappy people, only to annoy others by being untouchable to 90% of the skills... till you met a W/D or a D/x or a A/D with the touch enchantment removal skill.

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You'd THINK that ANet would realize this simple point, and adjust PvE accordingly. Heck, even Blizzard's old Diablo 2 did this with things like random monster immunities, and random monster mob spawns at higher difficulties.

Oh hell no. Immunities are the worst thing about Diablo 2, except for high-end rune drop rates. Lord De Seis - Immune to Physical, Immune to Magic, Enchanted Lightning, Stone Skin. Fun times.

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Oh, and just because my profile lists A/ doesn't mean all I do is farm or use SF all the time. That you assume so is a great example of the logical process you employ, and why you are always wrong about everything.

And you used logic and claimed he's always wrong about everything, every time for his whole life. Yeah.

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The tl;dr version for Tenebrae, "fixing" SF will not fix the game. The problem will transfer to a new class/skill, and you'll have the same issue FOREVER, until you fix the root cause. Being an advocate of nerfing SF is the easy, lazy way out.

Tl;dr version is "DON'T NERF MY SKILL, IT'S FINE AND NOT THE PROBLEM!!". Notice that after Ursan was nerfed, there were no overpowered builds, till they buffed SF.

Gill Halendt · Feb 18, 2010, 09:20 PM // 21:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The tl;dr version for Tenebrae, "fixing" SF will not fix the game.

This game is unrecoverable then: there's no developer in this world that will EVER get back and redesign the game mechanics of a 5 years old game just because they work absolutely fine but are a bit simplistic. GW works just like any other RPG of its time. Problems are being fixed like any other similar game.

I've never seen a game offering invincibility as an option instead of a cheat tough.

So, the game is as broken as SF. SF can be fixed, the root problem... not really, not anymore, nor it's worth it.

Get a new game if GW is so unbearably broken for you. Nerfing a gimmick won't eradicate the problem, sure thing, but it's something that needs to be done anyway, it's pretty much the only thing they can reasonably do now.

Tenebrae · Feb 18, 2010, 09:47 PM // 21:47

Woah thanks for getting the Job done Abedeus. Not much to say .

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Oh, and just because my profile lists A/ doesn't mean all I do is farm or use SF all the time. That you assume so is a great example of the logical process you employ, and why you are always wrong about everything.

Mister Wrong tell me im wrong ? yeah , thats why ppl call you Failban dude

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

The tl;dr version for Tenebrae, "fixing" SF will not fix the game. The problem will transfer to a new class/skill, and you'll have the same issue FOREVER, until you fix the root cause. Being an advocate of nerfing SF is the easy, lazy way out.

I guess its better than sitting there , dropping some cheap words and doing NOTHING. Yes , NOTHING with caps because SF abuses root problems and 1 more teaching class for you , if reworking SF takes X work and reworking almost entire game to fix those "root problems" you mention takes 100000X , then reworking SF is not a lazy way out , is the SMART one.

Kaleban · Feb 18, 2010, 09:56 PM // 21:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

Because if something is better than a BALANCED team, does something a lot more safely and a lot faster than that BALANCED group.. it probably means it's imbalanced.

Of course, your supposition ignores the glaring issue that "balanced" does not mean 8 man teams composed of one of each class.

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It shouldn't? You are probably playing with crappy pugs or without a good guild, where you never run anything like Derv-way or use Rangers or other classes at all. The "divine trinity" is pretty slow and crappy in GW, there are better alternatives, but people are too lazy. Can't change that.

Let me know when Dervway starts running DoA. And according to your logic, ANY build that is better than "balanced" is OP and imbalanced, hence needing a nerf to bring its power in line. Which of course would mean that the whole game would be even more bland and vanilla than before.

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No, but the more skills causing problems you fix, the closer you are to the golden formula. That's like a surgery - you have to fix bones, cauterize bleeds, do a splenectomy... each on its own won't help the patient, but if you fix all of the problems one by one, he will eventually be cured.

Your medical metaphor needs work. What ANet is doing, and you and others are defending is akin to putting calamine lotion on a flesh eating bacteria. It might feel soothing temporarily, but the same problem will keep coming back. Also, fixing ALL problems one by one usually means the patient dies, since the problems you weren't able to fix at the end of the sequence get worse as you focus on other problems.

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Yeah, rebalancing every single area in the game, being careful not to screw up either with Normal Mode for lowbies or Hard Mode to make the game impossible (WoH post-buffs in HM and Crystal Desert Monk bosses?)

Right, because WoH will counter SF... Try thinking first. If the problem is an enchant that makes a character "invincible" then add a skill to random mob spawns that defeats it. Doesn't even have to be a player available skill, it could be some "monster-only" skill which ANet has shown no problems coming up with. Heck, with the coming of Dhuum it even makes some roleplay sense to have Dieing Nightmares spawn randomly.

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No? It's because SF uses a different version of the skill. And when it didn't, it was used in RA by crappy people, only to annoy others by being untouchable to 90% of the skills... till you met a W/D or a D/x or a A/D with the touch enchantment removal skill.

Or a Touch Necro. Or a Rit with Disenchantment. As I said, SF is not used in PvP because of its gimmicky nature, which is a simple fix in PvE.

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Oh hell no. Immunities are the worst thing about Diablo 2, except for high-end rune drop rates. Lord De Seis - Immune to Physical, Immune to Magic, Enchanted Lightning, Stone Skin. Fun times.

Your opinion. Without immunities, Hell would be easy. And most builds have ways to counter anything the game can throw at them, whether switching from elemental to physical, life tap, etc. I have had several SC and HC characters that regularly trounced Hell difficulty, without uber rune gear. One man's difficulty is another's boon, hence why basing sweeping generalizations on subjective opinion is a bad idea.

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And you used logic and claimed he's always wrong about everything, every time for his whole life. Yeah.

Yes. Thank you for seeing the truth.

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Tl;dr version is "DON'T NERF MY SKILL, IT'S FINE AND NOT THE PROBLEM!!". Notice that after Ursan was nerfed, there were no overpowered builds, till they buffed SF.

Oh no? 600/Smite? Nah, couldn't be. What the argument boils down to is people who hate Sins are mad that Sins gained prominence. And that they were forced to eat the words "if you don't like it, go roll a new toon."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Woah thanks for getting the Job done Abedeus. Not much to say .

Mister Wrong tell me im wrong ? yeah , thats why ppl call you Failban dude

I guess its better than sitting there , dropping some cheap words and doing NOTHING. Yes , NOTHING with caps because SF abuses root problems and 1 more teaching class for you , if reworking SF takes X work and reworking almost entire game to fix those "root problems" you mention takes 100000X , then reworking SF is not a lazy way out , is the SMART one.

Lol.

Time taken to "skill balance" = in excess of 5 months.

Time taken to add Dieing Nightmare spawns in areas frequented by permasins = one afternoon.

Time taken to add a "monster only" disenchant to areas frequented by permasins = probably a couple days of coding and adding it to mob spawn lists.

It requires thinking outside the box, something you've proven time and again incapable of. But at least you're in line with ANet's methodology of nerf first, don't bother fixing later.

Gill Halendt · Feb 18, 2010, 10:13 PM // 22:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Lol.

Time taken to "skill balance" = in excess of 5 months.

Time taken to add Dieing Nightmare spawns in areas frequented by permasins = one afternoon.

Time taken to add a "monster only" disenchant to areas frequented by permasins = probably a couple days of coding and adding it to mob spawn lists.

It requires thinking outside the box, something you've proven time and again incapable of. But at least you're in line with ANet's methodology of nerf first, don't bother fixing later.

So tell me why I must be continuosly stripped of, say, my Protective Spirit while playing a Warrior, or my Attunement while playing a Ele, just because of some Permasins abusing the area?

Read this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...0426818p2.html

Here's what your thinking out of the box produced: one of the most abused areas is now a little less abusable by permas, and pretty much a hell for anyone else.

Lord Chris Bravo · Feb 18, 2010, 10:26 PM // 22:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

So tell me why I must be continuosly stripped of, say, my Protective Spirit while playing a Warrior, or my Attunement while playing a Ele, just because of some Permasins abusing the area?

Read this: http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/h...0426818p2.html

Here's what your thinking out of the box produced: one of the most abused areas is now a little less abusable by permas, and pretty much a hell for anyone else.

I couldn't agree with you more ... i have failed countless number of times when trying to solo UW because of the nerfs forced on by the overfarming of areas in particular Perma-Abuse

Tenebrae · Feb 18, 2010, 10:32 PM // 22:32

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

It requires thinking outside the box, something you've proven time and again incapable of. But at least you're in line with ANet's methodology of nerf first, don't bother fixing later.

Yeah , lets rework entire game to counter SF , thats the way to go !. Clearly im not the one "inside the box" lmao. If you hit your head against a wall 10 times really hard you will be doing yourself almost same dmg that your words anytime you post.

Spookii · Feb 18, 2010, 10:46 PM // 22:46

It boils down to the same thing. You can whine and complain and QQ and say that the game needs fixing. "Don't bend the spoon, bend the world." mindframe, much? It's like a 15 year old complaining that Chuckee-Cheese's arcade is boring and too easy. Instead of taking the 15 year old out of Chuckee-Cheese, you want to revamp it to fit the bratty teenager's wishes.

Shadow Form IS overpowered. Not because of the fact that there are parties of the same class in the group, which people seem to keep referring back to for some odd reason(?). I really don't care if assassins team up by the hundreds in massive hax0r groups. It's all about the fact that they can get the job done in a time frame far, far faster than ANet intended and far, far faster than anyone else. And when I say 'job', I mean any job. The same goes for 600/smite, which is why they're also nerfing that. But that's another thread.

And don't even get me started on the PvP question about why SF isn't used. That was probably the dumbest comment I've seen on this thread. And everyone knows why, methinks. Grabbing at straws can be painfully obvious. If you're getting that desperate for ammunition, just leave the thread quietly. No one will care/notice. :/

Orry · Feb 19, 2010, 04:17 AM // 04:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Lol.

Time taken to "skill balance" = in excess of 5 months.

Time taken to add Dieing Nightmare spawns in areas frequented by permasins = one afternoon.

Time taken to add a "monster only" disenchant to areas frequented by permasins = probably a couple days of coding and adding it to mob spawn lists.

It requires thinking outside the box, something you've proven time and again incapable of. But at least you're in line with ANet's methodology of nerf first, don't bother fixing later.

Dying Nightmares were meant as a counter to 55-farming, something which they do quite well, and they are balanced because they only take 2 wand hits average to kill them. Not to mention that if they get rend off they'll kill themselves most often. What would prevent a monster frequenting SF heavy areas from hindering other people greatly? "Monster Skill. Removes Shadow Form and deals 100 damage that cannot be stopped by any form of protection if an enchantment was removed" thjat would stop perma in the underworld, and it's probably the only thing that will short of a nerf, a functionality change, or a buff that makes something else better.

Ugh · Feb 19, 2010, 05:35 AM // 05:35

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kaleban

Of course, your supposition ignores the glaring issue that "balanced" does not mean 8 man teams composed of one of each class.

They are able to incorporate any class, however. Of course they don't use 8 different classes at the same time.

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And according to your logic, ANY build that is better than "balanced" is OP and imbalanced, hence needing a nerf to bring its power in line.

If he didn't say, "a lot more safely" and "a lot faster," that would be true. But he did, so it's not.

If gimmicks are better than balanced groups, but not so much better that they take balanced groups out of the question entirely, they're not much of a problem.

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And according to your logic, ANY build that is better than "balanced" is OP and imbalanced, hence needing a nerf to bring its power in line. Which of course would mean that the whole game would be even more bland and vanilla than before.

I don't find gimmicks fun. The longer they stay around, the more bland I find this game.

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What ANet is doing, and you and others are defending is akin to putting calamine lotion on a flesh eating bacteria. It might feel soothing temporarily, but the same problem will keep coming back. Also, fixing ALL problems one by one usually means the patient dies, since the problems you weren't able to fix at the end of the sequence get worse as you focus on other problems.

How would SF come back? Obsidian Flesh? It's possible. But, seeing as it doesn't make you immune to attacks and it's much slower, I doubt it.

Would gimmicks come back and continue to edge out balanced groups? I don't doubt that new gimmicks will emerge to dominate some areas, but an SF nerf should also make balanced groups better than gimmicks in other areas (and hopefully closer to the efficiency of gimmicks in the gimmick-dominated areas).

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If the problem is an enchant that makes a character "invincible" then add a skill to random mob spawns that defeats it. Doesn't even have to be a player available skill, it could be some "monster-only" skill which ANet has shown no problems coming up with. Heck, with the coming of Dhuum it even makes some roleplay sense to have Dieing Nightmares spawn randomly.

UW is not the only area where permas are a problem.

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What the argument boils down to is people who hate Sins are mad that Sins gained prominence. And that they were forced to eat the words "if you don't like it, go roll a new toon."

lol

Or it could be any of the other reasons already listed.

And while we're pulling generalizations out of our asses: All your argument boils down to is people who are terrible at GW and can't actually get anywhere in the game without OP bullshit that gives them invincibility. And, they're insecure about their incompetence so they feel the need to conceal it by copy/pasting a build off wiki and 1-2-3ing their way through the game until their e-peen gets big enough to impress other online players.

(And yea, I know you were joking, but I reacted anyway just in case :P)

reaper with no name · Feb 19, 2010, 06:59 AM // 06:59

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Originally Posted by Kaleban

And that no one forces you to run a SF Sin? That the same people who complain about SF being overpowered were the ones dominating DoA and high end areas with team builds that excluded half the classes in GW?

You can do UW just fine without a Sin. Will you be as fast? No. Will that lessen your fun? It shouldn't unless you define fun as maximum efficiency, which is just weird.

No I did not actually. What I SAID was that the game is dead except for very specific areas. You won't find a lot of people at Henge of Denravi for example. An SF nerf is not the problem as I SAID, what is the problem is a lack of ANet's interest in maintaining their game's fun.

SF doesn't remove the difficulty of playing GW. That's the dumbest statement I think I've heard so far. I can solo clear most of UW on my spirit spam Rit, something I could never do on a Sin. Farming by definition is not challenging, its repetitive and formulaic and nearly guaranteed. People do it to build wealth. And MMOs are designed to addict people to the gameplay, one of the reasons why WoW is so successful is the psychological impact of not letting your monthly fee "go to waste."

And I'm not sure why people keep assuming that the vast majority of GW players have stacks of armbraces and ectos. I've played the game IIRC a total of some 2500 hours across various characters, only one of which has FoW armor, and I've never seen an armbrace. Perhaps elitist jerks crying SF nerf should stop assuming that everyone feels and thinks just like them?

I want a SF nerf, and I have never dominated in high-end PvE. In fact, I don't even have a character that is of most of the classes that typically dominated high-end PvE. If I had been around back then, I would have been saying that they were overpowered.

Nor am I a rich player. I don't have a single character with elite armors. I possess only 3 ectos. The only thing I've ever had of any real value is the scythe from Dhuum I got a couple days ago that I had no use for. And you know what I did with it? I customized it anyway, and am now trying to think of a use for it, because I like the spikes on the end of the handle that match my dervish's elbow spikes. I couldn't care less about the in-game economy, and I have no vested interest in it.

Please, stop saying SF doesn't affect other people. It does. It forces each and every player in the game to make a choice:

Either use a SF sin, or suck. Refusing to make the decision is to choose the latter.

No one should be forced to use a particular class or suck. No one.

upier · Feb 19, 2010, 07:40 AM // 07:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

I want a SF nerf, and I have never dominated in high-end PvE. In fact, I don't even have a character that is of most of the classes that typically dominated high-end PvE. If I had been around back then, I would have been saying that they were overpowered.

Nor am I a rich player. I don't have a single character with elite armors. I possess only 3 ectos. The only thing I've ever had of any real value is the scythe from Dhuum I got a couple days ago that I had no use for. And you know what I did with it? I customized it anyway, and am now trying to think of a use for it, because I like the spikes on the end of the handle that match my dervish's elbow spikes. I couldn't care less about the in-game economy, and I have no vested interest in it.

Please, stop saying SF doesn't affect other people. It does. It forces each and every player in the game to make a choice:

Either use a SF sin, or suck. Refusing to make the decision is to choose the latter.

No one should be forced to use a particular class or suck. No one.

Trash SF and everyone sucks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Abedeus

No, but the more skills causing problems you fix, the closer you are to the golden formula. That's like a surgery - you have to fix bones, cauterize bleeds, do a splenectomy... each on its own won't help the patient, but if you fix all of the problems one by one, he will eventually be cured.

But the reality of the situation is that you are getting the surgery under the US health care system.
Oh ... and you don't have insurance.

Age · Feb 19, 2010, 08:30 AM // 08:30

It is 2010 and SF is still alive and well so nexts month balance that happened last year.

Hyperventilate · Feb 19, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

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Originally Posted by Age

It is 2010 and SF is still alive and well so nexts month balance that happened last year.

2012 is the year of the SF nerf, I bet.

Really, though.. it's been what, 3-4 months as they've been saying, "We're gonna nerf SF......next month."

Eesh. If they're not working on the skill balance, what are they doing?

*ponders* Poker, I bet.

Tenebrae · Feb 19, 2010, 09:32 AM // 09:32

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Originally Posted by upier

Trash SF and everyone sucks.

So SF users dont suck ? yeeeeeeeee , they are pro players lmao.

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Originally Posted by upier

But the reality of the situation is that you are getting the surgery under the US health care system.
Oh ... and you don't have insurance.

Yeah , SF is your fail/safe option that is so fair ..... that only 1 class have it , pretty balanced for sure.

upier · Feb 19, 2010, 09:55 AM // 09:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

So SF users dont suck ? yeeeeeeeee , they are pro players lmao.

Ohh that's what the guy meant with "sucking"?
In which case the guy doesn't need SF trashed - the guy needs to learn how to play the game.

If on the other hand the issue is how much easier and faster things can be done with SF and how in comparison running non-SF options sucks, then trashing SF will mean that everyone will be on a level that currently sucks. And for a game that currently lives of heavy ass grinding and farming - that's an interesting road to take.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tenebrae

Yeah , SF is your fail/safe option that is so fair ..... that only 1 class have it , pretty balanced for sure.

The argument rather was that in the surgery-analogy fixing SF equals fixing ONE bone. Fixing other skills would mean fixing the other bones. And to fix all bones, you'd need to fix ALL skills.
The bleeding can represent heavy ass grind that is in the game.
The splenectomy can represent the shitty AI.
Other necessary procedures would mean other changes that need to happen.
The lack of insurance would mean that the individual needs to put in resources to have the procedures done.

So, given the resources A.Net has - they can only afford to fix a few bones. And to make matters worse - it's those bones that are actually preventing some massive bleeding from occurring (I mean, if you remove the best farming tools - the people farming and grinding will need to step up and take this to a new level since the tools for it are that much worse).

So unless additional changes are done to the game, fixing SF will probably mean that the game will be worse off than before.

Gill Halendt · Feb 19, 2010, 09:59 AM // 09:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Trash SF and everyone sucks.

That's why I advocate the introduction of cheats in GW.

Why learning to play the game decently? Give us the /beatmission /getloot commands!

Now THAT would be fair!

upier · Feb 19, 2010, 10:31 AM // 10:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gill Halendt

That's why I advocate the introduction of cheats in GW.

Why learning to play the game decently? Give us the /beatmission /getloot commands!

Now THAT would be fair!

I would argue that the introduction of cheats is as good for the game as is creating titles that require you to open 10k high end chest. Or consume 10k minutes worth of booze. Or 10k sweet points. Or 10k part points. Or 10 mil Luxon/Kurzick faction. Or ID 10k golds. Or whatever the max for the Z-title is. Or ...
Both options are completely out of touch with the game.

If one side of the coin is being listened to by giving it the nerf of the farming tools, than it would make sense the the OTHER side that requires you to resort to these farming tools is ALSO being listened to.
But no. I guess GW is a MUCH better game now that it requires thousands of hours of very dedicated play to reach a level where one can say one completed the game.

Stop catering to farmers.
And farmers include title grinders.

Horace Slughorn · Feb 19, 2010, 10:55 AM // 10:55

Done all my titles. Abused the hell out of ursan and SF. Made the cash I need and bought the things I want. Do w/e you like, I'll be afk in my gh as usual

Gill Halendt · Feb 19, 2010, 11:53 AM // 11:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

If one side of the coin is being listened to by giving it the nerf of the farming tools, than it would make sense the the OTHER side that requires you to resort to these farming tools is ALSO being listened to.
But no. I guess GW is a MUCH better game now that it requires thousands of hours of very dedicated play to reach a level where one can say one completed the game.

I maxed all the titles you mentioned by... guess what? playing the game. Never "farmed" in the strict meaning of the term. It took 4 years for me. I enjoyed it. 4 years of enjoyment. Ever seen me complaining about GW being "dead" and having nothing more in the game to do? Of course not: I haven't burnt all I could experience in the game in a couple of months.

Sure, that required hours dedicated play. Isn't that the one and only definition of "passion"? Again, guess what? Probably titles and "hi-end items" were meant to show that: how much dedication a player had put into the game, and a reward for his or her dedication. I never considered myself a skilled players just because I have 32 titles on my main. I'm just a passionate and dedicated player, nothing more. Reaching this level in a zap doesn't make anyone a skilled player. Yet it doesn't even show dedication. So, what's the point? Show off?

We could argue about this for years, sure. You can say an open end on this "hi-end" content is fine because everyone is allowed to experience it. Well, they are not. You're not "doing UW" while doing speed clears. You're basically skipping it to get the chest in the shortest ammount of time. All speed clears are good for is to hoard loot. Not surprised that developers disprove it. On the contrary, people interested in playing the UW are now facing a much increased difficulty. That's to slow down greedy people's speed clears. So the other side of the coin could be people like who enjoy playing with friends and don't care much about how long it takes to clear an area. Thanks guys, UW is now simply irritating because of you.

I don't see anything wrong in the developer nerfing something that allows playing this game in a way it wasn't designed, expecially when this way is so clearly broken, so clearly different from the game design, and so widely abused. It's their choice to do so. "No one will play those areas again without gimmicks" you'd probably say. I say... So what? GW is a game, you're not forced to play it. If people find playing this game as intended boring or inaccessible.... it's probably time to move on and find a new game.